Union of faiths

All religions have redeeming factors… people wouldn’t follow them otherwise.

“Everything possible to be believed is an image of truth” -William Blake

So in my opinion it looks like green spiral didn’t pick either of your options and possibly understands some things you don’t.

While I did skirt your question, it is because I think you are creating a false dichotomy.

Things can be true to varying degrees, classic example being Newton’s laws… turns out they’re not actually true, but for the most part, they are (higher level physics laws reduce to newton’s laws in ‘normal’ circumstances, but Newton’s laws fail in relativistic conditions).

“Are all religions equally true/good” is not a yes/no question. Its like asking “Are sunny days a good thing” – well, yes they are, until you get sunstroke. Or no, they aren’t, except that sunny weather makes you happy.

I don’t believe God is a man sitting in the sky, but is an image of a man sitting in the sky is a false representation of God? This representation is ‘true’ because that is how God manifests to some people, but it’s also false because God manifests to others in different ways.

You’re also raising the question as to whether ‘ecclecticism’ is inconsistent with the beliefs of some religions that theirs is the only religion… And I think the answer to that is that if you understand that images of God are manifestations of the ‘godhead’, and religious dogma is a spiritual path, and acknowledge that you are on your own path, then you can pick what you want from separate religions and work it into your own system.

I do think exclusive truth claims are a problem when they are used to justify imperialism. We take exclusive truth claims so far that we start waging wars over them, or at least use them to justify wars. I think that people need to take a step back and realize that while what they believe is true, or at least true in their context, there are also deeper levels and other ways of understanding where both sides are represented.

And if you believe exclusive truth claims, then “Getting along” comes down to an issue of respect. “maybe they understand something that I don’t and that is why they are the way they are”

The way you describe position #1 doesn’t match what people actually believe. Hardly anybody is going to argue that all religious beliefs are equally true and good (truth and goodness aren’t the same thing, by the way), so defeating that argument gets you nothing. More commonly, advocates of inclusion argue either that all religions are equally good and/or true, which is generally understood to mean that they all have some redeeming qualities and some bad qualities, or that they all have some element of truth. Believing that all religions have some element of truth doesn’t contradict #2.

I agree Jeff,
Any religion worth its salt attempts to answer 5 main questions in life: Who are we, where do we come from, where are we headed, what is our purpose/meaning and what determines right and wrong.
We have religious beliefs because we trust them to adaquately and “truthfully” answer these questions. Not just partial “sorta true”, but true in a correspondant relationship to reality. “Partial truths” only indicate a lack of precision in the statement (don’t you remember getting those true/false test questions wrong because only one part of it was false? Same case here.
If we can not critically assess where truth claims diverge between religions then we are in trouble.
Thus the confusion when people say statements to the effect of “all religions have some truth or some good” or “all have the same god” or “all lead to the same place or help people the same way”.

This “buffet spirituality” mentality is political correctness and pluralism gone mad.
I think I’ll have a little Buddhism and Paganism with some Judaism on the side…

Justin,
So lets say a particular religion states that it alone is the true religion and all others are wrong. Would that religion be included in the “all religions have some redeeming value” claim? Even though it is claiming its own exclusiveness? I don’t see how they are compatible logically.

yeah, I tried to explain that in my 1st response but i guess i missed the mark.

Basically I think a religion claming its exclusiveness is a trick they do to make it easier for followers to stick to the religion (and believe the dogma), and also because it helps them be evangelical and also imperialistic (so its kindof darwinistic that religions that claim exclusiveness tend to be larger).

I also think some religions have rituals that you can perform and not actually be a believer in the infallibility of that religion, like meditation (Buddhism) or the rosary (Catholicism). People who do that clearly do it because it has redeeming value.. yet they are not necessarily members of that religion. (yes there are non-Catholics who say the rosary)

So the answer to your question is yes, even religions that claim their own exclusiveness have some redeeming value.. you just have to analyze them a bit to understand why. You can also just look at evidence of the fact that people are polytheistic and draw the conclusion based on the fact that [good] people like that exist.

Many faiths have been used by men for power over the masses and peoples of other faiths. Books have been written by those seeking power and position over others. There is a lot wrong with every faith, but there are also some basic truths to be found in most if you seek it. That is what people with unclouded minds search for and follow.

“If you look to nature for divinity — that is Paganism.”

So the creature worships the created. Why not worship the Creator?

Santiago,

It takes a whole lot of faith, not spine, to be an atheist.

Justin,
So you think religions that have exclusive truth claims are just “tricks”? Just manipulative ploys to delude the most people?
Well what if i say that your saying its just a trick is also your own trick to delude people… Would you take it seriously or just laugh?

“And as an outside observer you see them as a metaphor, so the exact details arent relevant… you can then pick and choose the parts of the religion you like.”
This is amazing, i’ve never actually heard anyone admit to such silly ideas. How does using different religions as metaphors help anyone address the real questions i presented above? Making up your own reality is nice, but it doesn’t help you address the important, real questions. If the “exact details” include people claiming to be God or God’s Son, it’s either lunacy or something to take seriously, the middle ground (taking it as metaphor?) is not defensible. Don’t you agree?

This article is very interesting and informative.

I guess I struggle with this issue at times, because I am a firm Bible-believing Christian, so I believe that Jesus was who he claimed to be the Son of God. Here is where the delima sets in. Even though Jesus claimed that the only way to heaven is through him he doesn’t command us to hate people from other religions, so it’s very difficult sometimes to tread through some of the issues involved with other beliefs.

I also find that this nation has come to the point where even Christians are ridiculed and despised in some places. I understand that the “minority” always feels more despised, but sometimes that happens to people, who might be viewed as the “majority” as well.

We do live in a pluralistic society no arguing there, so what should people do about it? In my oppinion people should love others despite the fact that we don’t all believe the same thing, because ultimately that’s what Jesus would do. We should all remember that humans are NOT God nor were we MADE TO BE God, but we were made in GOD’S IMMAGE.

I’m actually a part of Green Spiral. And, well, to the question of ‘view one and view two’ that isn’t up for the group as a whole to decide. Each person in our organization has different religious ideas than everyone else. We have people who are Lutheran, Atheist, Pagan, Wiccan, just spiritual, Druids, Shintos, and everything else that I could possibly think of. Many of us are very interested in learning about other religions of people and incorporating those aspects into our everyday lives.

We don’t do ‘worship’ at our meetings, we’re a social group for like minded people. So the idea of view points one and two are personal choices.

Josh – It’s no more comical than trying to claim that any one fallible person or group of people owns exclusive access to THE TRUTH about the divine. There seems to be a presumption among many people (I’ve seen it most often in major organized religions) that human beings can grasp, in its entirety, the mystery and majesty of God. I, for one, don’t buy it. The universe is far too vast and complex, and our understanding of it (and our place in it) is far too limited. Our need to insist on some sort of monolithic TRUTH (and the corresponding desire to inflict that view of that TRUTH on others – or else!) seems to reflect our own insecurity in the face of that inscrutable mystery and complexity. Most people follow a particular religion all their lives not because they’ve chosen it after exploring a variety of belief systems and assessing them honestly for their own merits, but because it’s the religion they were raised with. They don’t know anything else, and frequently they don’t know a blessed lot about the history of their own faith. Is this faith in the truest sense of the word, or is it just a mask covering spiritual and intellectual ignorance/laziness? Religion tackles mysteries that are transcendent of human research – hence it is inherently futile for any individual to insist that s/he, and s/he alone, has exclusive access to THE TRUTH. I applaud the members of Green Spiral for their willingness to learn from each other and, in so doing, to discover some of the many smaller truths that may help them grow closer to the divine.

Long before pagans misappropriated them, tarot cards were used for playing a card game similar to spades and in Europe, especially France, tarot is still played as a card game. For some reason the mainstream media would rather promote the occult distortion of these cards rather than report on their intended gaming use or of the ongoing tradition of tarot card game playing. Tarot for fortune telling is based on nothing more than occult fantasy. Tarot is really for card games, people!

“It takes a whole lot of faith, not spine, to be an atheist.”

The cliche religious argument that atheism is a religion. The burden for the existence of god is on people who claim that he exists, not for us.

More than telling religious people to grow a spine, however, I was telling all those comfortable liberals that are willing to “accept” everything even if it is contradictory for their inability to take a moral stance and defend it in fear of being “politically incorrect”. A lot of religious people actually have a much more sturdy spine than a lot of liberals.

I actually have a couple of comments. The first is that Green Spiral seems to be a very good organization that I would not mind getting involved with. The second is that covering Tarot card gaming is not interesting and will thus most likely never get an media attention. Third, and this is in response to the very first question asked in the comments section, All Religions are equally true and false.
I say this because every creates their own reality based on how they percieve things. The truth about religion is that very few two people and no three people can agree on everything about their religion (even if they are the same religion). Every human being sees the Truth differently. The Truth for me is not the Truth for you. People can believe that their religion holds the unequvical truth and make their decisions based upon that. Others recognize that the truth is relative to the person and can see that All Religions are both completely right and completely wrong. That is not faulty logic on my part, that is understanding that everyone sees things diferently.
Religion was created by man, as Sharon said, to explain the things that s/he did not understand at the time. Faith is universal to the human condition. Every one has faith in something, be it a higher power or science. Thank you for your time.

As the President of Green Spiral, I would like to state that the point of the article was not to start a dull and pointless debate about whose religion is more correct, but simply for other pagan students and faculty to know that the club exists.

The article was not what we wanted, it misquoted us, overemphasized aspects that are only true to certain types of Paganism, got facts wrong, and some quotes such as “People have an image of me drinking blood in their heads” and “We’re not crazy” not one of us ever stated. However, it did the job, we have been receiving many e-mails from both students and faculty interested in the club.

Last weeks meeting on Tarot card reading was hosted my Dawn Botke, she stated in the very beginning that Tarot reading was originally a card game. The reason the State News focused on tarot cards was only because that was the meeting they happened to attend. They got most of the information on Tarot cards wrong and overemphasized their role in Paganism.

I’m going to deliberately sidestep Josh’s question because I also believe it to be a false dichotomy. Josh, if you were trying to ask if Green Spiral is anti-Christian, the answer is NO! Green Spiral has members from many faiths, many grew up in an all Christian household. We have members who are atheists, members who are anti-religious, and members who are devout catholics, they attend simply because they enjoy the company and our activities. Much of our members beliefs incoporate beliefs from many different religions (including Christian, Judaic, and Islamic beliefs). So to ask whether Green Spiral as a whole believes that any other religion is false does not make any sense to us.

Furthermore, to start debating about whether it is right or wrong to incorporate beliefs from many religions is also rather tiresome. This is what our members do, if you don’t like it thats fine, those are your beliefs and not ours.

Additionally, to state “So the creature worships the created. Why not worship the Creator?” simply means you have no idea what Paganism is about. For us, the created is the creator. All life is connected, and this connection is what we consider to be “God”. So we are worshiping the creator, we simply have a different idea about who that creator is.

For those interested in joining our club, please go to wwww.msupagans.com

~Naomi

Sharon,
I appologize if you felt i was mocking you, it is not my intention to insult but to explain that when you write something above, you are stating something you think is true and advocating that we in the forum should consider it seriously as a possible explanation, otherwise why post? The reason we all post to this forum is because we all think we have a perspective that is worth voicing. None of us says: this is my opinion, but i don’t think its true or false. That is a nonsense statement, you would do better to just sit on your hands than say nonsense, so we defend our arguments with reasons.

“Religions are supposed to be built on faith, not on facts, which is a good thing as there are no facts that support any of them.”
You are allowed this definition of faith or religion if you want, but don’t include Christianity in it. Christianity is fundamentally linked to a historical fact: Jesus’ bodily resurrection from the dead. The apostle Paul makes careful arguments to show that if this fact is not true, then all of Christianity is worthless (1Cor 15). The Christian faith is grounded upon facts, or at least it makes that claim. We have to evaluate if that claim is trustworthy.

There are specific questions that must be addressed by everyone’s religion or belief system: questions of origins, destiny, identity, purpose and morality. We SEARCH for answers to these questions from all the systems of thought that have come down through the years, we don’t manufacture answers out of thin air. Reality doesn’t allow us that luxury.
Discussing the truths of religious belief and suggesting that some people are wrong is not hateful, it is rather the opposite: If i truely believe i am on the right path and there are serious consequences for not being on this path, then is it wrong or impure motive to want to persuade others to consider otherwise? I try not to “condemn people to hell”, thats not my job, but i don’t think Jesus was a liar when He spoke about it in His ministry.
Best of luck to those in Green Spiral, I do hope your searching is fruitful.

to Josh Caleb thank you for being to respectful of green spiral and what we belive, that is really what anyone is asking for, respect. It is only when christions come up to me telling me I am an ‘abomination’ that I will ‘go to hell’ or make fun of my belifes which I feel VERY stongly about do I get upset. And I feel like alot of people treat pagans that way. I’m glad that you don’t and I hope that more people of your faith can follow in your footsteps. Also to your question ““If i truely believe i am on the right path and there are serious consequences for not being on this path, then is it wrong or impure motive to want to persuade others to consider otherwise?”“ No, its the way that people go about ‘converting’ that bothers me. Don’t try to convert me, if your not going to listen to my side of the story with respect. And seriously think about what i’m saying, don’t just lable it mombo jumbo. I’ve spent many years finding my own religion and it bothers me that i’m sterotyped by what the media or what popular belifes say about paganism.

Tarot reading is boring and pretentious. It works at curing insomnia. It’s more fun to play actual card games with tarot cards. Tarot does indeed work. It works well as a card game.

He probably hasn’t. Like i said before, fear of the unknown is clearly keeping him from seeing things from a different perspective.

Well, oh-mighty-god-of-the-tarot…. care to explain to us lowly mortals exactly <i>how</i> it can be played as a card game?

wait…. i’m not interested, nevermind.
=)

Joe Padilla might be rude but he’s right and he is doing something productive. It is the card readers who are being destructive. Tarot readers are promoting stereotypes which have been harmful to the interests of game players. The general public has been duped by the “new age” publishing industry and by the uncritical mainstream media regarding tarot’s true heritage. The connection of tarot cards with the occult is based on false histories concerning the decks origins. The occult activities should in no way be seen as genuine tarot. Genuine tarot is a type of card game. The tarot game is very popular right now in France, Canada, and practically any place the French language is spoken. There is also a similar game played in Austria and surrounding areas known as “tarock.” Many players of tarot card games, nowadays, use a more modern deck with double-ended court cards and conventional playing card suits of hearts, spades, clubs and diamonds and the trump cards sport arbitrary scenes of 19th century Europe. Not only is tarot currently played as a card game in continental Europe, there are efforts to import these games to other parts of the world. Unfortunately, the widespread promotion of fortune telling stereotypes in connection with tarot cards has had an inhibiting effect on cultural exchange and innovation. Many card game websites are being targeted by “psychic reading” Google ads which are inappropriate to their content. Card game websites have also been wrongly categorized as “occult” or “paranormal” by internet filtering software programs. An online forum for the popular Hoyle Card Games CD-ROM software even displayed a complaint from a misinformed Christian user because of the software’s inclusion of the modern French tarot card game. These are just three examples of the damage these stereotypes have been causing.

I am not against tarot. Tarot is really a kind of card game. I am against the occultic misrepresentation against this artifact. Those cards were intended to be used for card games! The mainstream media should reflect that fact instead of promoting the one sided occult view of tarot cards. Do as you like with the cards but stop this cultural distortion of tarot. Tarot does not come from Egypt and there is no historical link between tarot cards and astrology, alchemy, or Kabbalah. Tarot was meant to be used as a card game and it’s time for most of the American public to become aware of it. I am very pro-tarot as I play the games for which these cards were actually intended.